Remington Rolling Block Saddle Carbine identification help?

[JV Puleo]

I certainly does look as if it had the conventional Egyptian markings. That makes it very unusual is that thus far I don't think any more than a handful of carbines with real Egyptian markings have been seen. There are carbines in .43 Egyptian caliber ... there is one in the Remington Museum, but there has always been a question as to whether any of them went to Egypt. All that said, we know the details of only one of the Egyptian orders, the first in 1869. We also know that many more rifles were purchased for an overall total of about 200,000 and that the later guns had the rotary extractor as yours does. The also rare Egyptian musketoons have this same extractor. Remington was finally paid for all of the rifles it supplied to Egypt in September of 1880, so this gun must pre-date that although its difficult to say exactly when it was made. It appears to have what Layman calls a "Type 3" action, suggesting it was made between 1871 and 1874. This is completely consistent with the manufacture of later Egyptian arms and their slow payment/delivery schedule.

[JV Puleo]

Joosse...
I'm not so much the expert as I edited George Layman's book on the Military Rolling Block and thus got a first rate education on the subject. I also found the Samuel Norris papers and his copy of the 1st Egyptian contract so its only coincidental that I'm able to help. George is the real expert and you ought to find a copy of his book. I believe it is available in the Netherlands. I know it was reviewed by ... I can't remember the name, but the Dutch arms magazine. If you email "Man at Arms for the Gun Collector" and ask Kristin, she will be able to give you the name of a Dutch or other European book seller that carries it. (service@manatarmsbooks.com)

I would guess that lack of the EP mark only means it was not used by the police. This would have been at a much later date, probably in the 20th century.
Lack of sling swivels only means that it was intended to be carried on a sling. Your Dutch RB carbines were carried the same way.
I don't know what the 1401/1901 mark is but military RBs were not serial numbered... it could be almost anything.
The markings on the top of the barrel are also numbers.

Cheers,

Joe Puleo

[JV Puleo]

Yes, it does and that is the reason I'm so pleased to see it. George did tell me that he had seen one - or thought he had as it was probably 30 or more years ago. Even George, who has a virtually photographic memory, did not feel comfortable with any more than a conditional suggestion that some may have gone to Egypt. One of the problems is that .43 Egyptian was the "standard" caliber of RBs all over the middle east as well as the caliber of the RBs sold to France during the Franco Prussian war so the mere existence of a well worn carbine in that caliber proves nothing. Documentary evidence is still lacking but your carbine, with what appears to be fairly conventional Egyptian RB markings, makes a much stronger case that at least a few of them were supplied. I still think the number must have been very small. It would be nice to get confirmation that it is in .43 Egyptian caliber... and, at some point (there is no hurry) we'd like to get good, high resolution photos of it for our files. You will not find it easy to get an empty .43 Egyptian case to try in the chamber but .43 Egyptian is nearly identical to the Dutch 11mm Beaumont cartridge... the .43 readily chambered in the Beaumont chamber but I believe the Beaumont was slightly bigger so it may not work the other way around (Beaumont in a Remington chamber). But, I'd try to find or borrow an empty case and see if it is close. It has been surmised that some of the Dutch RB carbines were sold in Persia after becoming obsolete precisely because it was possible to use .43 Egyptian in them.

The possibility also exists that the markings are something other than Egyptian... Ethiopian or Sudanese for instance, and the the carbine came from a source other than the Remington/Egypt contracts (say, a French carbine that ended up in the Sudan via Morocco or the turn of the century gun running trade in the horn of Africa)... almost anything is possible but until some documents or more examples show up this is about as good as the evidence gets.

Cheers,

Joe Puleo

[rudybolla]

You can make a quick and dirty chamber cast with wax that will give you a pretty good idea of the chambering. Cerosafe is better, if you can order some and wait a few days for it to be delivered.

[JV Puleo]

My apologies for not answering sooner... I'm on the road in the UK and have been unable to connect to the internet for a week or so.
The markings are almost certainly just numbers... we have no idea at this point what they mean but I personally believe they are a quite late addition. I say this because British "bring back" souvenirs from the period of the Arbi Pasha revolt never have those marks.

I'll give this more thought when I get some free time... we're on a frantic project to photograph swords of the English Civil War and have about a dozen museums to visit.

[oldremguy]

Hello Evert,

Here are some photos of my Egyptian Carbine. It doesn't have the Egyptian Markings on the barrel, but it does have the EP stamped on the left side of the receiver.

P1010227 - Copy.JPG (65.71 KiB) Viewed 8507 times

Below is a photo of the Egyptian Carbine along with a Egyptian Musketoon. The Musketoon has a barrel length of 23-1/2 inches and has a bayonet lug for the sword bayonet.

P1010223 - Copy.JPG (42.15 KiB) Viewed 8507 times

My carbine has the sling ring on the left side of the receiver and sling swivels on the butt stock and the forearm. The swivel on the butt stock was moved from the bottom of the stock to the right side sometime during its lifetime. Both the carbine and the musketoon have the rotary extractors, see photo below.

P1010226 - Copy.JPG (57.03 KiB) Viewed 8507 times

Have a Good Day,
Matt