44-77 Military style RB

[Preston County Rider]

Any help identfying this beauty will be appreciated

Picked it up at the York, Pa Gun show - RB with caliber markings Cal. 44-77 cf - military stock (three band), no bayonet stud, military style sight (graded to 1000 yds). Upper tang (which doesn't show well in the pictures) has Remington Arms Company, Illon, NY with two rows of patent dates ending with 1874. The letter "G" is stamped on the receiver. Directly under the caliber markings is "1869" - this also appears on the stock. There is a small letter "p" on the left side of the barrel right next to the receiver. No serial numbers, I haven't pulled the stock to look under the barrel, yet) Barrel length is 35". Hopefully the pictures come through.

My first try at slugging the barrel had mixed results - using a .451 ball barely shaped it. It looked like the measurement was .440 or close to that. Will try again. I have not chamber cast her yet (Yes, Yellowhouse, I heard you loud and clear!).

Was wondering if this could be a special of some kind - the only sporting RB sold with a military stock option, as per konrad schreier's little book, was a Creedmore...I doubt very much that this is the case here! There are no drill holes for any other sights.

A mystery, perhaps? Any help would be appreciated.

PCR

[Yellowhouse]

Roy, RemGuy, Marlinman93, & anyone come help. I sure hope this is a "Civilian" military style.

Preston, a .451 ball barely graved suggests proper groove for a 44-77. It'll take something like a .490 ball probably to get it done. Remington usually had 5 groove rifling and it bear to take accurate measurements. I won't say anything about chamber casts this time.

[Preston County Rider]

Thanks, Yellowhouse - and FWIW - just got 20 rounds of 44-77 SBN brass from Buffalo today - the empty cases fit perfectly in the chamber - and seals around the bottom rim - like it was made for the gun - don't know if this is a good sign or what. I have additional pictures of the gun which I can post if needed

[Yellowhouse]

Brass! For original guns I presume? Can't wait to shoot can you?

This can be why the 44-77 in an old rifle can be a "Money Pit"

I ordered .43 Spanish Jamison brass but the necks were too thick to chamber a .446 bullet. Remember these are overbore and have to bump up in most rifles to fit a groove of hopefully just .451

Had a buddy that had some old BACO modified .348 but they were for modern chambers and the headspace was too great.

Then, I ordered for BACO .348 for originals. Guess what! The necks of this batch were the same thickness as the Jameson!!!!

So then I ordered proper thickness necks from Rocky Mtn and I can now chamber a .446 bullet.

I use the BACO and Jameson for paper patch which is what the rifles were designed to shoot in the first place.

In other words, I coulda save some money!

[marlinman93]

I use .43 Mauser brass and ream the necks slightly. The .451 ball should easily engrave and fill the bore of a .44 -77 as the .446" bullet wouldn't work in a .44-77 if it didn't. Sounds like you've got something else that was mismarked later by some owner. Possibly the 11.5 Spanish Reformado? They were .452" I think. That's an odd spot for a Rem. caliber marking, and I'm not sure the military Rems were marked at all???
Time for that Cerrosafe chamber cast!

[Yellowhouse]

Boy, I blew that one on the .451 ball didn't I.....sometimes my typer goes faster than my thinker. Val is correct.

Preston....may have asked this before but can you tell by looking if it is a bottleneck. The 11.5 Reformado is a straight slightly tapered case.

[marlinman93]

Not sure if any of the Rollers sold to Brazil were chambered in their 11.4x50 Brazilian, but that might also be a possiblity? It's a .452" bullet and a bottleneck also.

[Preston County Rider]

The chamber does appear to be bottlenecked but need to cast it find out. I guess the question I have is why would someone go to all the trouble of mis-marking the barrel? And, any thoughts on the "1869" under the 44-77, the same number that is also stamped on the stock? Did this type of thing happen to rollers on a regular basis?

[Yellowhouse]

44-77 makes a better seller than any foreign military cartridge. The 1869 may be the serial or more likely a rack number. Still hoping for you this is a civilian model but there's some things that don't add up. There was an original number one sporter on an auction some time ago. Everything added up except the seller finally fessed up that it had a new green mt barrel on it. It had been re-stamped Remington and with the original serial but the stampings were plainly not authentic Remington.

There are several here on this forum that know markings very well. Have patience, it may be a few days but they'll come around.

P.S. 43 Spanish bores varied a great deal too. Since the only difference between it and the 44-77 is neck diameter. Someone early may have had an overbore situation or something and they put a 44-77 reamer to it then stamped it. Just a thought. The more I look at those markings they just don't look Remmie.

[marlinman93]

As Yellowhouse said, the .44-77 is a very attractive marking, especially on a military Rolling Block, and if it were a .44-77 it would be more desireable. I wouldn't say positively that it isn't, but two things jump out at me to make me doubt.
1-The .452"+ bore diameter. Just way too big for a .44-77 that should be .446"
2-The way the caliber is marked, doesn't look like anything I've ever seen on a Rolling Block of any make.

I really hope I'm wrong, but either way it's a Roller and you can't go wrong with them!

[Preston County Rider]

The saga continues - finally got a good slugging of the barrel - best read I can get is .432-.435 - will be doing the chamber cast in the next week of two - would .435 work for a 44-77? Also, the "G" on the receiver and the small letter "p" on the barrel by the receiver, does that help to id the gun?

PCR

[Preston County Rider]

Took the RB apart - no serial numbers under the barrel - only marking is a letter "P" similar to the one on the side of the barrel next to the receiver - there are two small holes next to the "P" about 6" from the receiver - removed the rear stock - on the bottom tang, aka the trigger guard, are the numbers 13 503 (written with the space between them as shown) - there is nothing more - nada, zip, no fancy lions or tigers or crowns - seems to make this more and more an American made gun, yes? Thanks

PCR

[marlinman93]

Nope. The bore is too small for a .44-77 caliber. It should slug more like a true .44, since the .44-77 uses a .446" bullet.

[Preston County Rider]

Folks - just finished a chamber cast using wax - easier than cerrasote. Went down into the bore as well. Measurements are as follows:

Case - .510
Neck - .456
Bore - .449

All measurements were done at least three times - so, what have I got here? This seems to indicate it is, in fact, a 44-77 and the fact that the barrel is not marked, maybe a marriage of some kind? Like I said before, the only mark on the underside of the barrel is a small "P", like the one near the receiver.

Thanks

PCR

[Yellowhouse]

The neck diameter bothers me a bit...a 44-77 should be around .468-.472 or in that ball park.

Your bore (bore or groove?) is pretty large at .449 (mine is .445 bore and 451 groove). You may have one of those all over the map 44-77's. Please verify bore or groove on the .449. If its groove, I'll go with the 44-77.