Model 141 ?
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Longbow
Model 141 ?
I was given a Model 141 ,in 32 Remington . I'm having a feeding problem with it and I'm wondering how much the magazine tube would have to do with it. It seems that the shell is being picked up from the magazine,but the front of the bullet seems to catch just above the tube and tips down not allowing it to chamber. How far down the mag. tube is the magazine plunger suppose to go ? Mine rest or stops under the loading gate, not allowing the gate to depress,unless I push the plunger forward. Does this sound right,and if it is coming to far down the mag.tube ,would it cause the problems with feeding. I am trying to use original factory shells,for I know the lenght is right. Thanks for any help --ongbow
Re: Model 141 ?
Longbow!
You provided two very useful pieces of information and that is your follower is positioned exactly where it should be which is about midway into the loading door, the other is that you are using factory ammunition which "should" be the proper length to function in this gun. OACL is THE most critical factor in the feed of this firearm, if they are just a "hair" too long they will do pretty much what you describe in your write-up. If you have tried more than a few factory rounds (factory being Winchester or Remington brand ammunition and not new reloads from an outside source) and they have all hung up then the probelm can be any one of the following: Cartridge stop, Carrier, Carrier Dog, Carrier Dog Spring, or a combination.
The carrier and its related assemblies have multiple touchy working parts but if you take the gun down you can inspect the "carrier dog" (technically known as the little flippy thingy) located in front of the trigger assembly in the trigger guard..........does it readily flip back/forth with enthusiasm?? Sometimes the spring for these either gets bent, worn out, broken, or just out of position. My other major suspect is the cartridge stop but I do not think your problem is related to the magazine tube, assembly, or follower but unless I had the bloody thing on my bench I could not say for certain.
I work only on M14's and 141's at the rate of about one a week and what I have told you is based on my experience and is an opinion only. Where are you located??
You provided two very useful pieces of information and that is your follower is positioned exactly where it should be which is about midway into the loading door, the other is that you are using factory ammunition which "should" be the proper length to function in this gun. OACL is THE most critical factor in the feed of this firearm, if they are just a "hair" too long they will do pretty much what you describe in your write-up. If you have tried more than a few factory rounds (factory being Winchester or Remington brand ammunition and not new reloads from an outside source) and they have all hung up then the probelm can be any one of the following: Cartridge stop, Carrier, Carrier Dog, Carrier Dog Spring, or a combination.
The carrier and its related assemblies have multiple touchy working parts but if you take the gun down you can inspect the "carrier dog" (technically known as the little flippy thingy) located in front of the trigger assembly in the trigger guard..........does it readily flip back/forth with enthusiasm?? Sometimes the spring for these either gets bent, worn out, broken, or just out of position. My other major suspect is the cartridge stop but I do not think your problem is related to the magazine tube, assembly, or follower but unless I had the bloody thing on my bench I could not say for certain.
I work only on M14's and 141's at the rate of about one a week and what I have told you is based on my experience and is an opinion only. Where are you located??
Jim Peterson
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Longbow
Re: Model 141 ?
Thank you Jim ,
I have the ablity to reload for this gun ,by resizing 30 Remington brass. I made up some dummy loads and seated the bullet further into the case but same problem. I know the flippy thing you are talking about and it seems to work ,but I have no way of knowing just how snappy its suppose to be. Its funny that you live in N.C. as that is where the rifle came from. My uncle lives down there in Raleigh. Do you take on work to repair these guns? Are parts still available? My uncle had a scope mounted on the gun and had the side of the reciever drilled and tapped. Its not worth much money wise but I want to keep it as a shooter,and its just plain fun to shoot,though right now its just a single shot. I live out here in Arizona,and would really like to take it out deer hunting. Thank you again for all your help ---1Longbow
I have the ablity to reload for this gun ,by resizing 30 Remington brass. I made up some dummy loads and seated the bullet further into the case but same problem. I know the flippy thing you are talking about and it seems to work ,but I have no way of knowing just how snappy its suppose to be. Its funny that you live in N.C. as that is where the rifle came from. My uncle lives down there in Raleigh. Do you take on work to repair these guns? Are parts still available? My uncle had a scope mounted on the gun and had the side of the reciever drilled and tapped. Its not worth much money wise but I want to keep it as a shooter,and its just plain fun to shoot,though right now its just a single shot. I live out here in Arizona,and would really like to take it out deer hunting. Thank you again for all your help ---1Longbow
Re: Model 141 ?
Longbow!
One of the things I find interesting about factory loads is that the later ones including the last run made by Remington measure 2.485 while ones from the 20's, 30's, and 40's measure 2.515, I wonder if the factory was trying to tell us something like the shorter the better....LOL!
I have written a commentary on how difficult it is to change parts on these guns but the M141's were far-far better in that regard than the M14's which are a total crapshoot. That being said let me ask you another question for clarification: After you get the cartridge into the magazine tube and attempt to feed it, does it make it anywhere near the chamber or can you describe (not an easy thing to do) about where the cartridge "hangs up".
I am glad you made up some dummy rounds, makes it easier to play with but you have probably noticed they get chewed up in the process of experimenting and these guns work poorly with anything except almost pristene rounds. Periodically I just make new ones or take the old ones apart and clean them up on my "fine" wire wheel, resize, and reseat the bullet.
If your cartridge is not even making it into the internal loading mechinism (that would be with the bolt fully back) then that can narrow it down somewhat. There could also be a piece of crud or a "burr" inside the action bar inhibiting the feed or the pin from the carrier itself has been bent or even missing, I have seen all of that.
If you have enough confidence in you ability to remove the action bar/tube, clean it up, lubricate it, and then replace it that might solve the problem but if you have not done it before it can be tricky. Let me know where the cartridge is hanging up and I'll give it some more thought. ......and yes I do take these in for repair, as I said I get about one a week and have piles of parts, mostly for the Model 14......you are sure yours is a Model 141? They will say GameMaster on the side of the receiver with the Model number.
This is probably driving you nuts, get back at me!
One of the things I find interesting about factory loads is that the later ones including the last run made by Remington measure 2.485 while ones from the 20's, 30's, and 40's measure 2.515, I wonder if the factory was trying to tell us something like the shorter the better....LOL!
I have written a commentary on how difficult it is to change parts on these guns but the M141's were far-far better in that regard than the M14's which are a total crapshoot. That being said let me ask you another question for clarification: After you get the cartridge into the magazine tube and attempt to feed it, does it make it anywhere near the chamber or can you describe (not an easy thing to do) about where the cartridge "hangs up".
I am glad you made up some dummy rounds, makes it easier to play with but you have probably noticed they get chewed up in the process of experimenting and these guns work poorly with anything except almost pristene rounds. Periodically I just make new ones or take the old ones apart and clean them up on my "fine" wire wheel, resize, and reseat the bullet.
If your cartridge is not even making it into the internal loading mechinism (that would be with the bolt fully back) then that can narrow it down somewhat. There could also be a piece of crud or a "burr" inside the action bar inhibiting the feed or the pin from the carrier itself has been bent or even missing, I have seen all of that.
If you have enough confidence in you ability to remove the action bar/tube, clean it up, lubricate it, and then replace it that might solve the problem but if you have not done it before it can be tricky. Let me know where the cartridge is hanging up and I'll give it some more thought. ......and yes I do take these in for repair, as I said I get about one a week and have piles of parts, mostly for the Model 14......you are sure yours is a Model 141? They will say GameMaster on the side of the receiver with the Model number.
This is probably driving you nuts, get back at me!
Jim Peterson
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Longbow
Re: Model 141 ?
Thanks Jim ,
For all your help. Yes it is a Model 141. I can load shells into the magazine ,and when I work the action a shell is fed into the chamber. The problem seems to be when the shell is lifted into the bolt face. It is either not being pushed far enough up into the bolt face or the bullet part of the shell is hitting something causing the shell to tip forward (toward the bottom of the chamber). As you move the slide forward the shell either pops out of the bolt face,or stays titled not allowing it to chamber. Hope this make sense. I'll be gone for the next 2 days ,so maybe you can mull this over and see what you think. from your past post ,i'm begining to this that maybe it is that flippy thing, that lifts the shell onto the bolt face.
Again Jim THANKS for your help. Longbow
For all your help. Yes it is a Model 141. I can load shells into the magazine ,and when I work the action a shell is fed into the chamber. The problem seems to be when the shell is lifted into the bolt face. It is either not being pushed far enough up into the bolt face or the bullet part of the shell is hitting something causing the shell to tip forward (toward the bottom of the chamber). As you move the slide forward the shell either pops out of the bolt face,or stays titled not allowing it to chamber. Hope this make sense. I'll be gone for the next 2 days ,so maybe you can mull this over and see what you think. from your past post ,i'm begining to this that maybe it is that flippy thing, that lifts the shell onto the bolt face.
Again Jim THANKS for your help. Longbow
Re: Model 141 ?
Longbow!
This is a process of elimination game and with that info we have eliminated the magazine tube, follower, and probably the cartridge stop. It sounds like it is "Carrier" or related or OACL, even though you are using factory ammunition have you actually measured the rounds you are working with? If you have made up dummies from fired brass, have you resized them and are you using round nose bullets all of which could contribute to the problem.
Failing all this, the next suspect would be the carrier and its related parts or the carrier dog/spring (little flippy thing). It may well be that the carrier is hung up and not providing full lift to the cartridge.
This is a process of elimination game and with that info we have eliminated the magazine tube, follower, and probably the cartridge stop. It sounds like it is "Carrier" or related or OACL, even though you are using factory ammunition have you actually measured the rounds you are working with? If you have made up dummies from fired brass, have you resized them and are you using round nose bullets all of which could contribute to the problem.
Failing all this, the next suspect would be the carrier and its related parts or the carrier dog/spring (little flippy thing). It may well be that the carrier is hung up and not providing full lift to the cartridge.
Jim Peterson
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Longbow
Re: Model 141 ?
Hi Jim,
I went and measured the remaining factory rounds that I have and they all measure (give or take) 2.461. I had the chance this weekend to go to a gun show and handle a couple Model 14's and 141's which is rare out here in the west. 2 of them were in real nice shape,and I notice that when working the action. The shell carrier(lifter) really seems to snap up. Mine doe not have that positive snap so to speak,it just kinda comes up ,if that makes sense. You are right the gun is rough on my dummy loads,the brass really takes a beating. The factory rounds by the way are old Remington -Peters 170 grain RN. Jim thanks for taking your time to help me with this--Longbow
I went and measured the remaining factory rounds that I have and they all measure (give or take) 2.461. I had the chance this weekend to go to a gun show and handle a couple Model 14's and 141's which is rare out here in the west. 2 of them were in real nice shape,and I notice that when working the action. The shell carrier(lifter) really seems to snap up. Mine doe not have that positive snap so to speak,it just kinda comes up ,if that makes sense. You are right the gun is rough on my dummy loads,the brass really takes a beating. The factory rounds by the way are old Remington -Peters 170 grain RN. Jim thanks for taking your time to help me with this--Longbow
Re: Model 141 ?
Longbow!
Yeah, I am convinced it is "Carrier" related and I could check it out and fix it in a jiffy if I had it here. The one thing that you could do cheaply would be to send me the trigger assembly (without the stock) and I could check out the function of the carrier dog/spring while cleaning it up. Wouldn't cost you much more than the postage, other than that I would need the entire gun. Your call, glad I could be of help.
Jim Peterson
Charlotte, NC
Yeah, I am convinced it is "Carrier" related and I could check it out and fix it in a jiffy if I had it here. The one thing that you could do cheaply would be to send me the trigger assembly (without the stock) and I could check out the function of the carrier dog/spring while cleaning it up. Wouldn't cost you much more than the postage, other than that I would need the entire gun. Your call, glad I could be of help.
Jim Peterson
Charlotte, NC
Jim Peterson
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Longbow
Re: Model 141 ?
Jim ,
That sounds great, I'll just need your address and I'll get it out tomorrow. If you decide after looking at the trigger group that you need the rest ,we can work that out also.. Thanks so much --Longbow
That sounds great, I'll just need your address and I'll get it out tomorrow. If you decide after looking at the trigger group that you need the rest ,we can work that out also.. Thanks so much --Longbow
Re: Model 141 ?
Jim Peterson
7420 Leharne Drive
Charlotte, NC 28270
nambujim@carolina.rr.com
Yeah, probably cost $5 priority mail for the triggergroup and I can go over it and check it out. I use the "Ow!" system for checking the spring.....you hold the "dog" all the way forward, let it spring back against your thumbnail and if it hurts it is usually OK. It should move so fast that you can't see it but then I only have one good eye anyhow....LOL!
7420 Leharne Drive
Charlotte, NC 28270
nambujim@carolina.rr.com
Yeah, probably cost $5 priority mail for the triggergroup and I can go over it and check it out. I use the "Ow!" system for checking the spring.....you hold the "dog" all the way forward, let it spring back against your thumbnail and if it hurts it is usually OK. It should move so fast that you can't see it but then I only have one good eye anyhow....LOL!
Jim Peterson
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Longbow
Re: Model 141 ?
Ha Ha,
The part will be on its way in the morning,keep a total of your cost and let me know if you need the rest of it . Thanks --Steve
The part will be on its way in the morning,keep a total of your cost and let me know if you need the rest of it . Thanks --Steve
Re: Model 141 ?
I'll check out the TG and if there is any obvious problem I will fix it and return it to you to check out. If that cures the problem then we are home free and if not then we'll work on the whole gun but we will get it fixed.
Jim
Jim
Jim Peterson