I have a question concerning the historical significance of a rifle. Like most posts in this section I'll start out with the mandatory I have an old rolling block. The research I have done indicates it was one of the first rolling blocks made but maybe you can clear that up. I believe it to be a Calvary Musket Remington System M1866/75. Characteristics include a two line patent date on the tang, Liege proof marks on the underside of the barrel, lower tang longer than upper tang with retaining screw in stock, a screw retained firing pin, a screw retained extractor, Werndl sights and a channeled breach block. Unfortunately that is where the good news about this rifle ends. When I received it the forearm and barrel bands were missing and the bore is shootable but I wouldn't expect any accuracy due to pitting in the barrel. The question becomes whether or not to rebarrel and completely rebuild the rifle. I do not want to destroy something however that has historical significance. Any comments concerning the history or fate of this rifle from your membership would be appreciated.
Tony
Question about an old Remington
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remingtongeo
Hi Tony,
I wouldn't touch it. If you want a rolling block to shoot buy a new one or build one. I have seen some good actions on the auction sites and putting a rifle together just the way you want it is fun. Remington and Pedersolli make some fine shooters. A customized Remington won the Black Powder National shoot this year.
George Pavel
I wouldn't touch it. If you want a rolling block to shoot buy a new one or build one. I have seen some good actions on the auction sites and putting a rifle together just the way you want it is fun. Remington and Pedersolli make some fine shooters. A customized Remington won the Black Powder National shoot this year.
George Pavel
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Ed Hull
Question about an Old Remington
Tony-
Can you provide some more info, such as caliber, CF or RF cartridge, barrel length? This would help identify the rifle and set it's historical place. The "Werndl sight" sounds unusual.
Can you provide some more info, such as caliber, CF or RF cartridge, barrel length? This would help identify the rifle and set it's historical place. The "Werndl sight" sounds unusual.
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Roy Marcot
Tony,
I agree with Ed Hull's reply. Don't touch the gun until you can determine its exact nature. As an example, if it were a common Remington-made carbine that was exported to (or through) Belgium it would have been Liege proof-tested and stamped. Such a Remington made carbine might command only $300+ with its missing parts.
But if it turned out to be a Nagant-made rifle for the Papal Guard (circa 1867-1868) it would be worth restoring and eventually worth several thousand dollars.
Respectfully,
Roy Marcot
Remington Historian
I agree with Ed Hull's reply. Don't touch the gun until you can determine its exact nature. As an example, if it were a common Remington-made carbine that was exported to (or through) Belgium it would have been Liege proof-tested and stamped. Such a Remington made carbine might command only $300+ with its missing parts.
But if it turned out to be a Nagant-made rifle for the Papal Guard (circa 1867-1868) it would be worth restoring and eventually worth several thousand dollars.
Respectfully,
Roy Marcot
Remington Historian
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Tony Nielson
Ed, Roy, George
Thanks for your input. After posting this message I am going to try to post a series of pictures on the MSN BPCR site if you care to view them. I will attempt to post a link from here. I have also collected the following information about this rifle. The barrel length is 33 and 5/8 inches. The barrel slugs with 5 lands and 5 grooves. Groove diameter is .450 - .451 with a bore diameter of .430 - .431. (Seems like deep rifling) A cerosafe chamber cast was made. Diameter at the base of the shell is .531. Chamber has a shoulder midway up approximately 1.5 inches in front of the base. Diameter of the case at the mouth is .450. Measurement from the base of case to where rifling starts is 2.55 inches. My closest guess is that this is a 43 Spanish, but the case length would be a little short. Bore is better than I remembered it. Rifling nice and square at the case mouth but minor pitting throughout the bore.
From the rifle, the side of the upper and lower tang has the numbers 48183. The barrel and the lower tang are marked with the numbers 312. The opposite side of the lower tang has 4 straight slash marks followed by 2 angled slash marks. The underside of barrel is similarily marked. There are at least 5 different Leige proof marks on the underside of the barrel.
Hope this helps and once again any input as to the origins of this rifle are appreciated.
Tony
Thanks for your input. After posting this message I am going to try to post a series of pictures on the MSN BPCR site if you care to view them. I will attempt to post a link from here. I have also collected the following information about this rifle. The barrel length is 33 and 5/8 inches. The barrel slugs with 5 lands and 5 grooves. Groove diameter is .450 - .451 with a bore diameter of .430 - .431. (Seems like deep rifling) A cerosafe chamber cast was made. Diameter at the base of the shell is .531. Chamber has a shoulder midway up approximately 1.5 inches in front of the base. Diameter of the case at the mouth is .450. Measurement from the base of case to where rifling starts is 2.55 inches. My closest guess is that this is a 43 Spanish, but the case length would be a little short. Bore is better than I remembered it. Rifling nice and square at the case mouth but minor pitting throughout the bore.
From the rifle, the side of the upper and lower tang has the numbers 48183. The barrel and the lower tang are marked with the numbers 312. The opposite side of the lower tang has 4 straight slash marks followed by 2 angled slash marks. The underside of barrel is similarily marked. There are at least 5 different Leige proof marks on the underside of the barrel.
Hope this helps and once again any input as to the origins of this rifle are appreciated.
Tony
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Ed Hull
Belgian rebarrelled musket conversion
Tony-
It appears what you have is a conversion musket frame that has been rebarrelled in Liege to some caliber--possible an unique European cartridge. RSA members who are more cartridge savvy can perhaps, help there, with your aforementioned dimensions. Then we might know the ultimate use of this remanufactured rifle.
I suspect the frame came from one of the .58 conversion muskets that France imported from Remington during the Franco-Prussian War in 1870-71. The two line address dates to no later than 1871. The "channelled breechblock" dates to no later than 1870. Note the plate across the front face of the breechblock, added to accomodate the wide base of the .58 Berdan cartridge. You can also see the original rear sling swivel hole, now plugged, in the front of the trigger guard--only the .58 musket conversions used this sling swivel arrangement.
It appears what you have is a conversion musket frame that has been rebarrelled in Liege to some caliber--possible an unique European cartridge. RSA members who are more cartridge savvy can perhaps, help there, with your aforementioned dimensions. Then we might know the ultimate use of this remanufactured rifle.
I suspect the frame came from one of the .58 conversion muskets that France imported from Remington during the Franco-Prussian War in 1870-71. The two line address dates to no later than 1871. The "channelled breechblock" dates to no later than 1870. Note the plate across the front face of the breechblock, added to accomodate the wide base of the .58 Berdan cartridge. You can also see the original rear sling swivel hole, now plugged, in the front of the trigger guard--only the .58 musket conversions used this sling swivel arrangement.
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Ed Hull
Belgian rebarrelled musket conversion
Tony-
It appears what you have is a conversion musket frame that has been rebarrelled in Liege to some caliber--possible an unique European cartridge. RSA members who are more cartridge savvy can perhaps, help there, with your aforementioned dimensions. Then we might know the ultimate use of this remanufactured rifle.
I suspect the frame came from one of the .58 conversion muskets that France imported from Remington during the Franco-Prussian War in 1870-71. The two line address dates to no later than 1871. The "channelled breechblock" dates to no later than 1870. Note the plate across the front face of the breechblock, added to accomodate the wide base of the .58 Berdan cartridge. You can also see the original rear sling swivel hole, now plugged, in the front of the trigger guard--only the .58 musket conversions used this sling swivel arrangement.
It appears what you have is a conversion musket frame that has been rebarrelled in Liege to some caliber--possible an unique European cartridge. RSA members who are more cartridge savvy can perhaps, help there, with your aforementioned dimensions. Then we might know the ultimate use of this remanufactured rifle.
I suspect the frame came from one of the .58 conversion muskets that France imported from Remington during the Franco-Prussian War in 1870-71. The two line address dates to no later than 1871. The "channelled breechblock" dates to no later than 1870. Note the plate across the front face of the breechblock, added to accomodate the wide base of the .58 Berdan cartridge. You can also see the original rear sling swivel hole, now plugged, in the front of the trigger guard--only the .58 musket conversions used this sling swivel arrangement.
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kgregory
I have this rifle too! What is this thing worth?
I have this exact firearm with what appears to be the original wood-complete with the initials "BT" scrawled into the buttstock. It is in good condition and seems to have not been touched\altered\refinished.
I am thinking about selling\trading this for something else.
What is a good price range for something like this?
Greg
Charlotte, NC
I am thinking about selling\trading this for something else.
What is a good price range for something like this?
Greg
Charlotte, NC