A New Remington Rolling Block Military Rifle Book

[JV Puleo]

An update to George's announcement...

We now have a commitment from the printer. The books will arrive on or about January 4.

It will be a hardcover, 240 pages with about 650 photographs. (I think the actual number may be 672). There is more new information in this book than any other I've worked on in more than 20 years.

Joe Puleo
editor

[Dick Hosmer]

Sounds great, Joe. Is there any coverage of the various Springfield-built RB arms (some of which are quite rare) or is it exclusively about Remington fabrication plus foriegn licensees? Thanks.

[JimMill]

glayrem, Is this one of the springfield's with the 39in barrel?

gunbroker Auction # 147047960

Jim

[JV Puleo]

The rifle George and Dick are referring to is a .50 caliber Transformed rifle assembled at the Springfield Armory from an action supplied by Remington in 1868. I believe the rifle on gunboards is .58 caliber, thus being the relatively common, regular Remington-made Transformed rifle. Remington did not want the extra expense of sleeving the barrels so they made them to take the .58 Berdan CF cartridge. The conversation is a tad tung-in-cheek because of the 500 or so Springfield-made transformations, all but two had their barrels shortened before being issued for field tests. My understanding is that the only known example is still at the Springfield Armory.

[Dick Hosmer]

If you have a copy of Flayderman's Guide, I believe the rifle you asked about is probably a 5E-082. I'm (casually) looking for a Transformed rifle for my Springfield collection, and every time I see one like that, I get briefly excited. The hard times do seem to be bringing out some "new" items for sale. Still looking for an 1870 trials SA-Rem carbine, too!

Just acquired a pretty decent 1865 .50-60 rimfire Springfield-Joslyn, which I know is "off-topic", but it was the first metallic cartridge arm made (in quantity) at SA. I've owned one of the 1871 Joslyn .50-70 CF conversions for years.

[Dick Hosmer]

George - if it is not spilling the beans, WHAT happened to those 314 carbines? I had to get pics from SA, plus some dimensional info/notes from Bob Snitselaar, for MY book. I've never seen one in the flesh.

The Sharps version is even worse - I have never even seen a PICTURE of one of them (nor apparently has Frank Sellers).

I have three of the four 1870 trials rifles, lacking - of all things, given my collecting specialty - the TD, though I do have a couple of production Model 1870s; plus both the TD and Ward-Burton carbines. Been looking for a Rem and/or Sharps carbine for 40 years, come February.

[Dick Hosmer]

Interesting stories, George! Sounds like you may well have had one of them in your hands - and, even in 1976, the price was right. I had a similar experience, about the same time, definitely "pre-Flayderman". A TD rifle showed up in California, which had a checkered thumb-print at top of wrist, remains of what were obviously special sights, and an upside-down ESA/1878 cartouche. Said to be a "long-range" rifle - $500. That was a lot of money them, and since it did not have 6 grooves, or a long chamber, or the Hotchkiss stock (all features which a "real" LR was supposed to have) I passed. Well, guess what, it was one of four, and 100% right. The missing sights would have been the only drawback.

As to the SA-Rem carbines being "modified" rifles, is that literally true, or a kind of general comment? Of course, with the two-piece stock, I'm sure only the forend was made specially, but was the barrel simply cut off?

As I said, I do have both the TD and Ward-Burton carbines, and they both have specially-made barrels which are NOT simply shortened rifle components. I STRONGLY suspect that 1869 Cadet blanks were used as the basis, since the muzzle diameter of the carbine is equal to a cadet barrel cut at 22", and the cadet band is used. They MAY have been cut off, but if so, they were tapered the same as cadets. Of course the TD and W-B stocks, being one-piece, HAD to be new. One might think that for only 300+ each, SA might have taken the cheap way out there, but they did not.

I'm ACTIVELY seeking the 1870 TD trials rifle, if anyone has or knows of one. Supposedly they (1000 made) are around - but people seem to have a GREAT deal of trouble properly identifying the 1868/1870 models.

[JV Puleo]

It would have to have a CW rifle-musket rear sight and be sleeved to 50-70. The shortened Springfield-Remington transformed rifles were serial numbered but it appears that this was done when they were shortened.

[JV Puleo]

It certainly sounds like a possibility... without the whole gun it might be difficult to tell. There is a 50-70 Transformed rifle on gunboards right now that almost fits the description but, because we can see the whole thing, clearly isn't. George L. thinks it is probably a Mexican rework and I agree with him...but we can see that it has brass barrel bands and nose cap. As to your find... we might be able to tell if we had good pictures. The 1868 Springfield-Remington Transformed rifles also had a "stepped" frame while the regular production Transformed rifles didn't. The production models also had a longer lower tang and I don't remember if the Springfield-assembled rifles did.

[JV Puleo]

George... I thought the numbers added when the rifles were shortened? If so, one with the original length barrel wouldn't have a number.

Joe

[JV Puleo]

Its still an interesting rifle... the transformed rifles are probably a lot less common than people think and nearly all of them saw hard service.

[ehull]

I have previewed George's book and I recommend it. It is more complete than anything currently on the market, and corrects many errors made by early authors.
As to the M1870 RB carbine, I have handled only one--many years ago--and it is distinctive enough that you would not miss it if you saw one. Its 22 inch barrel and longer forestock are distinctive, not to mention the frame markings. Would you believe I have a mint, unused carbine frame? It has the rifle's sling swivel in the TG but it has the mounting hole for the sling bar (actually a Sharps type was used).