Dating a Remington Rolling Block

[Scorpion8]

Hello all -- I have a Rolling Block that my dad used to use as a wall-hangar ornament. Now I'd like to find out some stuff about it. There is very little stamped on the rifle anywhere. It is .43 Spanish as best as I can tell, as a shell casing fits perfectly with no movement. I have not done a chamber cast. The rifle has a "B" stamped in the barrel just forward of the receiver, left hand side. The Remington patent information on the receiver tang stops at "March 16th 1874" as the last valid patent noted. On each of the barrel bands on the right hand side there is a small square stamped. On the receiver right hand side the number "903" is stamped upside down. Otherwise there is nothing on the rest of the rifle or stock.

Here are some pics:







ANy help or discussion would be appreciated.

[tanpatsu]

Hello Scorpio8,
I viewed your posting and may be able to give you a boost on your question. From all appearances, your particular rifle appears to be one of the later Remington Spanish Model RBs. Having the last patent year as 1874, I would suspect the tang markings start off with E. Remington & Sons, to include that it has screw retained barrel bands?.... The second issue Spanish Model type rear sight is pretty obvious, however the number 903 on the right frame may give a clue as to who, when, and where it went, not to mention the good condition of the rifle. First off, three known countries who locally numbered their military RBs earlier in time on the right receiver flat, were Costa Rica, and Colombia, along with Ecuador. The rifles from these countries examined, mostly appear to have the older Spanish Model actions and markings, with some having the later action (with rotary extractor) but were in reality, former Egyptian Models converted and re-reamed to the .43 Spanish cartridge. They can be described by having their rear sight repositioned approximately one inch from the receiver, along with a full length or combination saber bayonet lug. Only recently however it was discovered that Uruguay also applied a local serial number to their military RB rifles on the right frame ahead of the forward breechblock pin as yours. Uruguay’s government made their first quantity purchase of 4,000 .43 Spanish Model Remington rifles on August 30, 1886, not long before the Remington bankruptcy. They were however purchased from Remington agents, Schuyler, Hartley & Graham in New York City. In addition, the Fort del Cerro Museum in Montivideo, Uruguay has three such marked/numbered rolling block rifles as yours, and are also in good condition as well. Furthermore, though humid, Uruguay is not as bad as the three aforementioned countries. Thus wood to metal pitting is less severe, something quite prevalent on rolling block rifles I have owned coming from those other three Latin American nations. In any case, that is my take on your rifle and strongly feel it is one of the 4,000 that came out of Uruguay in the early 1960s when they like so many other governments were disposing of obsolete ordnance. Though the activity is occasionally silent in this forum, I hope this gives a little encouragement.
Best Regards,
George Layman

[Scorpion8]

Thanks George! I can post up some pics of the barrel band(s) tonight, but I do believe they are screw-retained by a screw entering from the LHS of the barrel. There is no bayonet lug on this one. I'll see if I can get a really clear pic of the patent stamp on the tang also. Would any other pictures be helpful?

[tanpatsu]

My pleasure, happy to be of any help. Say if you would, could sent a photo of those "squares" adjacent to the barrel bands? Thanks so much.
George

[Scorpion8]

Turns out that (a) the barrel bands are secured at the joint under the barrel where they "bend" together, and (b) the squares on the barrel bands are actually "U"s as close as I can tell.

Barrel band:


Extractor:


Receiver tang:


Does anything change from your description?

[tanpatsu]

Thank you for the photos...I kind of thought there were actually "U's" on the bands, but no I still stick with my thoughts on this one....condition wise it still looks similar to those in the Uruguayan fort museum, of course the numbers are different.

[Scorpion8]

Thanks, and that's the most help and certainty that I could expect. I have no intention to sell it, but is it particularly valuable? I was thinking of possibly having it re-barreled to .45-70 which would be more useful in my neck of the woods here, or I may just keep it as a wall-hangar next to a bear skin rug. Looking at .43 Spanish ammo and it is quite spendy and the components are difficult to find.

[tanpatsu]

Ohhh....Please by no means have it re-barreled as far too many originals have already suffered this fate and like any other antique firearm, there are only so many left in existence. You can obtain .43 Spanish brass and .375 grain .439 diameter cast bullets from Buffalo Arms who have a website and you can even load your own with Pyrodex or black powder by improvisation, with simple tools and even thumb press or breech seat your bullets, especially after losing neck tension at the mouth. Thought the Spanish Model is rather common, none unless they are total...total basket cases should be torn up and re-barreled etc. Having that number 903 marked on the frame also gives it a special collectors flavor as well. If you would like a shooter, plenty of .45-70 RB reproductions are on the market;prices not bad as well. Simply enjoy your rifle as it is.....George

[Scorpion8]

Yea, makes it a tough decision. I know, from having way too many rifles that are in the same category, as well as a lot of vintage stereo that will never be made again. The issue is always to hang on to it even if it's not used, or do something with it but perhaps ruin one of something that will never be built again. For now I'm just happy I know more about it. For that I think-you supremely.

Question: is the "U" stamp on the barrel bands for Uruguay contract, or just something else?

[tanpatsu]

Yep ...very true and so many older guns have gone this route and have simply vanished from the scene. I recollect about 35 years ago when a gunsmith showed me a "sporterized" rolling block he re-blued, restocked, and re-barreled to .44-40 for a customer. I noted the words EM.L Nagant on the left frame and the familiar looking serial markings and prefix on the right frame which urged me to ask if I could look at the barrel and the other "discarded" parts. My heart sank when I saw that the barrel had the Papal Tiara on the flat knoxform chamber...it was once a very rare Nagant Vatican Model musketoon...in essence complete destruction of a very, very, scarce rolling block. So stuff does happen as they say. Any how the U on the barrel band is a common mark to many US martial arms (Remington RBs too) and is a positioning indicator meaning "up"....i.e. The top of the U should point to the muzzle and is of course positioned on the right side of the barrel. Anyway I really hope you enjoy that Remington even though its not scarce, but its nice to have an idea where it may have traveled since leaving the factory. Again, if you need assistance, don't hesitate to ask.....George

[Scorpion8]

Any how the U on the barrel band is a common mark to many US martial arms (Remington RBs too) and is a positioning indicator meaning "up"....i.e. The top of the U should point to the muzzle and is of course positioned on the right side of the barrel.

Hmmmmmm, my "U" points towards the receiver if the barrel bands are mounted with the "U"-stamp on the RHS. If I swapped them to the LHS, the "U" would point towards the muzzle. If someone disassembled the arm, then they were consistent in returning them all to the same side. And they can't be up-side-down because the tightening screw would then be on top if the "U"-stamp was kept on the RHS.

[Dick Hosmer]

I thought that the "U" was SUPPOSED to be on the LEFT side (when used at all) for Remington-made bands?

It is for the Remington-Lee, at least.

The right-side "U" was a Springfield feature, which certainly WAS used on the several martial RB models made there.

[stanforth]

I thought that the "U" was SUPPOSED to be on the LEFT side (when used at all) for Remington-made bands?

It is for the Remington-Lee, at least.

The right-side "U" was a Springfield feature, which certainly WAS used on the several martial RB models made there.

Wouldn't it depend on which way round you you fitted it?

[Dick Hosmer]

Wouldn't it depend on which way round you you fitted it?

It would IF you didn't care which way the "U" pointed - but - the open end of the "U" was supposed to face the muzzle, in all cases.

Therefore, the bands are "handed", to use an old builder's hardware term. And - in addition to the clamping ears (on those bands which have them) the general profile alone would prevent them from being installed upside-down as a previous poster suggested. Further, the bands are internally tapered and will often bind (or become VERY tight) if backwards installation is attempted.

Bottom line - there is only ONE correct orientation. Wish I knew how early the Remington bands had the "U" on the left - I'm guessing it began in the RB period, but am not sure when.

[stanforth]

Wouldn't it depend on which way round you you fitted it?

It would IF you didn't care which way the "U" pointed - but - the open end of the "U" was supposed to face the muzzle, in all cases.

Therefore, the bands are "handed", to use an old builder's hardware term. And - in addition to the clamping ears (on those bands which have them) the general profile alone would prevent them from being installed upside-down as a previous poster suggested. Further, the bands are internally tapered and will often bind (or become VERY tight) if backwards installation is attempted.

Bottom line - there is only ONE correct orientation. Wish I knew how early the Remington bands had the "U" on the left - I'm guessing it began in the RB period, but am not sure when.

Sorry. It was a small attempt at humour.