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New guy to the forum here. I've been lurking for a while and searching the archives for information about the .58 Berdan RRBs. I see there are a few of you who have them. I recently picked up this one and, like all my old rifles, I want to shoot it. Its fairly rough on the outside, but the bore is excellent and the action is tight. It has the long lower tang. The upper tang markings are all but worn off.
I disassembled the action and did a clean and inspect. The sear, half and full cock notches look fine, the extractor works good and the firing pin is good. The firing pin retracting spring was rusty and tired and did not retract the pin fully. So I put in a new srpring and it works fine now. The front sight is worn down pretty bad and there is piece of wood missing behind the nose cap on the right side. I slugged the bore and it runs .5935-.594" in the grooves. The rifle came with 40 lathe turned cases from Rocky Mountain Cartridge Company. I've been looking at bullet mold options from Accurate and a couple minies. Does anyone have bullet/loading suggestions? I've been shooting BPCRs for over 30 years, but this is a new one for me.
I've read that the long lower tang indicates a very early rifle. Can anyone tell me more about it?
Thanks,
Steve
Last edited by ndnchf on Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
I use a Rapine Mould # .585510 which is a hollow base mini that they described as the "New Style". Unfortunately, Rapine has been out of business for a number of years. Buffalo Arms Co lists, under "Black Powder and Shotgun Moulds" a "New Style" 575213 @ 510gr that is similar to mine. Depending on how accurate their drawings are, mine has a longer, more pointed nose. Mine casts at about 495gr.. I use 60 grain equiv. Pyrodex RS, one card wad, one Ox Wonder wad and corn meal to fill up the base of the hollow base. This gives me approx. 1145fps 9 feet from the muzzle.
Yes, these had a longer lower tang. According to Geo. Layman in his "Remington Rolling Block Military Rifles of the World" when used in transformed rifles (converted muzzle loaders), this allowed the original trigger guard inlet of the rifle-musket to be completely filled in.
Tjack - thanks for the reply. Its a shame Ray Rapine has retired with no successor. I've bought several molds from him over the years. What kind of accuracy are you getting with that minie? I wondered what the purpose of the long lower tang was. I hadn't thought it was something as simple as that. What cases are you using? Thanks.
Steve,
With my loads I'm getting 3" to 3 1/4" groups at 50 yards. Not great but the sights are crude and I am a plinker, not a group shooter. I live in the desert and am satisfied with minute-of-smallish rock or bush at 250-300 yards. For cases I'm using Bertram 577-500 trimmed down. I bought my rifle in mid 1998 and got brass shortly thereafter. Bertram brass was much cheaper back then. In mid 2008 I bought a Rolling Block carbine in .58 cal. For this I have to use the 577 Snider case by Jamison as the Bertram case would not work. Chamber casts are always wise when dealing with expensive cases!
Tom
Chamber length 1.335"
Diameter at mouth: .6315"
Diameter at head: .6565"
Rim: .772"
I was expecting a longer chamber. The .58 Berdan is listed with varying chamber lengths of 1.68" - 1.75". Mine seems more suitable to the .58 Musket cartridge length of 1.21". What is the chamber length of your .58 rifle and carbine?
The lathe turned cases have yet to arrive, so I don't have their dimensions. Their thickness may make it difficult to load a groove size bullet. I'd like to get some .577 brass to make cases, but it seems to be very scarce and Bertram is very expensize. I'll see how the lathe turned cases work out first. I don't expect much more than minute of rock accuracy, but I'd like to see what it will do. With the very slow twist it has, I'm thinking a short, light bullet will work best with it. Thanks!
How did you determine the chamber dimensions: direct measurement or chamber cast? The rim measurement seems excessively large for even the .58 Berdan.
Are there any marks remaining on the buttplate tang? Can you provide photos of the open breech and chamber?
The problem with slugging the bore on these musket conversions is that the rifling had progressive depth: nominally .595 at the breech and .580 at the muzzle. This was done to make the best use of the original minie bullet.
I measured the chamber diameter using telescoping gauges and a micrometer. The chamber length was measured using a caliper, as was the rim diameter. The chamber length was a little difficult to measure this way, but its pretty close. The other measurements I took several times and am confident in them, + or - .001". I can make a chamber cast, but I don't expect much difference from what I have measured already.
I slugged the bore using a .600 round ball driven from breech to muzzle.
I'll try to get some close up photos of the tang and breech. The tang has a few markings still visible, but not much. I didn't see any markings on the buttplate such as "US" that I expected. I didn't see any other markings on the rifle. But I'll look again tonight and try to get some better photos.
I took a few more photos tonight. I measured the rim recess again and it varies a little, but runs .772 - .776" using a digital caliper. Here is a shot of the breech with a steel rule layed across for reference. You can see the rim recess is over 3/4".
Here is a view inside the chamber. Its hard to get a good shot, but I think you can see the somewhat short chamber.
Here is the upper tang. Unfortunately, most of the markings are worn off.
Here is the buttplate tang, no markings that I can see.
What would this short cartridge be called? It It seems to be too short to be a .58 Berdan. I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Steve- Good photos. Some observations, first. This is an early gun, as shown by the concave/curved shape of the breech block where it rotates under the barrel (pre- Aug 1870). If you look at the way the breech block is made wider for the chamber you should see that there is a plate fitted to the front of the block, right? Later guns had this wide section molded in. Also, this is a CF gun, right?
That said, yours is probably .58 Roberts CF caliber. The short chamber and other dimensions most closely match this cartridge, though the chamber is a few thousandth sloppy. The chamber especially matched an early Remington made inside primed copper cased cartridge (rim= 0.750, head=0.655, neck=0.628, case= 1.203).
I have heard of Remington conversions in this caliber, but yours is the first I have "seen." I have speculated that the conversions delivered to South Carolina in 1869 were this caliber, to match the Roberts conversions which that state also purchased. I'm still looking for an "SC" marked conversion with a short chamber to prove this. Ed
Yes, it is centerfire. I thought the wide breechblock faces was molded in, but I just looked at it under a magnifier and there is indeed a plate morticed into the front of the block. .58 Roberts CF? wow that's a new one for me. I was thinking it was close to the .58 carbine, perhaps similar. I wish I could tell your there is an SC stamp on it, but I've looked it over pretty closely and find nothing. I have not removed the forend to look underneath, but I can do that later. I appreciate your comments and insight. This one is a real learning experience.
Thanks,
Steve
Steve,
Looks like Ed has pretty much answered your questions. For what its worth, I made chamber casts of my chambers before I made cases. Once the cases are made I don't have any use for the #s anymore. So, I have measured my chambers now similar to how you have done it. Both chambers measure about 1.9" to the origin of the rifling. My rifle cases (Bertram) are trimmed to 1.74". The base of the fired and reloaded case is .646" and the same case measures .623" below the base of the seated bullet. The carbine cases (Jamison) are trimmed to 1.65". The base of a fired and reloaded case is .659". The same case below the seated bullet is .635".
While the measurements don't differ much, a case fired in the rifle will chamber in the carbine but not the other way around. This is why I use two different parent cases.
tjack - thanks for the measurements. They are pretty similar to mine except for the length. I remeasured the length of my chamber by inserting a .625" diameter plug into the chamber until it seated firmly up against the rifling. It measured right about 1.400", a little longer than my earlier measurement, but I think this is more accurate. Definately shorter than either of yours. I probably need cases no longer than 1.375" long. I've seen three different lengths mentioned on the net for the .58 Roberts. I imagine these were based on measuring sample cases of different manufactures.
Ed mentioned 1.203"
Another sources says 1.280" and yet another says 1.37"
I guess it doesn't really matter, my chamber would fire all of them.
I'm anxious to get the Rocky Mountain made cases from the seller. They got mailed to the wrong address and I'm now waiting for them to be re-sent. The previous owner made a chamber cast about 10 years ago and sent it to Rocky Mountain Cartridge to have the cases made. So they should be good, but I don't know what length they were made to. I will need a set of dies also. I was surprised to see CH4D lists .58 Roberts dies, but they are pricey. Entering the "over 50" world is not easy or cheap. But it is an adventure.
I've been reading a lot of discussions on shooting the .577 Snider, which uses a similar sized bullet. There are a group of guys who had a .590" diameter collar button style bullet mold of around 350 grains made. Apparently, that shoots very well in the slow, 1-72 twist of these musket barrels. Not sure if I want a bullet that short, but the idea is interesting.
Steve,
Ed's measurements are very close to what George Hoyem gives in his "The History and Development of Small Arms Ammunition Volume 2" for the .58 Roberts, 1870: bullet diameter: .612"; rim dia.: .741", head (base) dia.: .656"; case mouth: .610"; case length: 1.37" and total length: 1.90". Hoyem is a cartridge collector not just a gun writer so his info is good. Also, what we take for granted today with quality control and tolerances did not exist back in those days.
When I get a new, used old toy in an odd or uncommon caliber I make a chamber cast and compare measurements with data in Hoyem's books or Jean Huon's "Military Rifle and Machine Gun Cartridge". Huon's book allowed me to ID a large caliber Nagant Rolling Block with a really strange chamber as being used by Luxembourg. It was my 1st contact with the Albini cartridge.
tjack - those sound like nice references to have handy. Thanks for the specs. But I'm confused by the bullet and case mouth sizes. You said the bullet is .612" and case mouth is .610". So the bullet is larger than the mouth? Is this a heeled bullet?
I found a couple photos of original .58 Roberts cartridges. After looking closely at this one, it does look like the bullet is larger than the case mouth, it may be a heeled bullet.
But then this one doesn't look larger than the case mouth, perhaps a different manufacturer?
Steve,
I have to expand the case mouth slightly to seat the bullet. I was giving you an idea of what the fired case diameter would be, therefore a closer look at chamber dimensions, without the expander plug influence.
Tom
